From owner-xj-digest-at-digest.net Fri Jan 23 01:37:03 2009 From: xj-digest xj-digest Friday, January 23 2009 Volume 01 : Number 2939 Forum for Discussion of XJ cherokees and wagoneers Brian Colucci Digest Coordinator Contents: xj: just wrong... xj: RE: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz Re: xj: Rear brake question xj: RE: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz Re: xj: just wrong... Re: xj: just wrong... XJ Digest Home Page: http://www.digest.net/jeep/xj/ Send submissions to xj-digest-at-digest.net Send administrative requests to xj-digest-request-at-digest.net To unsubscribe, include the word unsubscribe by itself in the body of the message, unless you are sending the request from a different address than the one that appears on the list. Include the word help in a message to xj-digest-request to get a list of other majordomo commands. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:14:25 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: just wrong... not sure how long this link will be around, but I think I saw this thing driving through everett last week... it's just wrong... http://images.craigslist.org/3n13m53p412314c1g991meb392ddd44901051.jpg 86 CAPRICE WITH A 91 EURO FRONT ITS SITTNG ON 26"S WITH A 4" LIFT. DUAL EXHAUST WITH 4" TIPS. it is amazingly weird looking... not sure how you can turn with it... almost want to go and find it to see how it works... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:10:02 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: xj: RE: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz A: At least you have a closed in carport. I'm lucky to have a roof over my head right now while working! There was another Mercedes oil pan cited for use that is rear sump. (Sorry. I don't know much about the MBZ chassis designators) That would allow for an easy install in an XJ (or MJ) or other vehicle requiring a rear sump pan. There is a group that does MBZ diesel swaps into various rigs and they make an adapter bell to hook to GM pattern AFAIK so 700R4 was probably used. (I could rig up an adapter to Jeep bell if I knew how to do CAD) An AW4 would be an excellent auto for the diesel. (Toyota diesels use them) They are low stall and high efficiency (which is why '93 ZJs with 4.0L AW4 got -at- 5mpg more than later models with the 42RE) 42RE may be convertible to 42RH with an '88 to '93 Dodge valve body (haven't done it, but I was going to before discovering the 42RH wouldn't stand up to the stroker motor I'm building or even the stock 304 from my J4000) An adapter to hook the MBZ trans to a NP/NV tcase may already be available. you've come to the right place... step into the Snohomish Monster Carport for a few minutes... :) I was looking at doing this to a '99 WJ not long ago... I've considered putting a Benz Diesel into an XJ or even my J10. The 300SD probably weighs in around 3,800lbs or so, right? The WJ weighs around 3,950. My '83 J10 stepside is 4,100lbs and most XJs are around 3,500-3,800lbs. Most Grand Wagoneers are in the 4,500 - 5,100 lb range. So, power to weight for your setup is within reason... here are the challenges that must be overcome: 1) the engine is a front sump, the axle and steering will get in the way... - recommend getting a rear sump pan or massive amounts of lift. 2) you'll need to mate the Mercedes Diesel to the Jeep trans, need an adapter... could be made... you'll need to adapt the flex plate and possibly need a new torque converter... this is the direction I'm considering first, however you face issues with the computer.(s). remember the torque curve is different, you'll need to research and work with a knowledgeable trans shop... computer issues may be resolved with a manual override possible with the AW4... not sure about the 42RE on the 4.0 or the 45RFE on the 4.7. http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-transcode-0700/ http://wjjeeps.com/speed_sensors.htm 3) if you use the benz engine and trans you'll either need a custom adapter to mate the trans to the xfr case... or rig up a divorced case setup of some kind... this could add length to the drivetrain... this could have a ripple effect... you'll need driveshafts. (my philosophy on doing these swaps it to try to use the stock transfer case in place along with the stock driveshafts... and move the engine forward... if you have the room.) 4) ok, so let's say you have the engine/trans/xfr case all in place... now you'll need to deal with wiring... this will take the skill set of both an electrical engineer and a computer engineer... there are so many freakin' computers on a WJ that you'll be facing some serious challenges to make it all work... I tried to set up the heated seats on my WJ seats in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... I had to buy TWO WJ computers and never did finish the project... started it in the Blazer, never finished... 5) plumbing... coolant... you'll need to add an oil cooler... minor problems. 6) engine mounts... recommend using the benz mounts, have saddles made up to use the stock WJ bases... you'll need to find the center line of the engine and keep things lined up properly... depending on whether you go with 2 or 3 you may need to move it forward or back. not a big issue... any one with a welder and big hammer can make this part work. :) 7) firewall clearance... shouldn't be a problem 8) brake system - the benz uses a vacuum pump for the brake booster, shouldn't be a problem. 9) exhaust system... if your WJ is a 4.0L the exhaust is on the driver's side... on the benz it's on the passenger side... the 4.7L V8 comes out passenger side: http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/under-wj-2.jpg After having done about a half-dozen of these swaps with more planned, you really need to 1) question your sanity 2) make sure you have lots of budget for odd ball issues and parts 3) make sure you have lots of friends with lots of skills 4) make sure you aren't planning on having this happen in weeks - figure 6 to 8 months at a minimum, and that's just mechanical, you may need more for faking the comptuers out... and you need those computers for just about everything on that body... I am giving thought to using either a 2.5 or 3.0 Mercedes Turbo Diesel in my '83 J10 stepside, but will probably keep the T-5... which means I'll need to find a flywheel and clutch setup for the benz... no, wait, just the flywheel and hope they're the same size... Why do these ideas have to be so complicated? :) The 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer would have been better had I not used the Novak Adapter mounts or xfr case setup... should have used stock GM mounts, more soundproofing on the firewall when the engine was out and the Advance Adapter setup on the trans instead of the xfr case... http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ hope this helps... if you decide to bail... how much for that engine? and where are you? :) john _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_01200 9 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:21:48 -0800 From: Jim Blair Subject: Re: xj: Rear brake question 1: The pins are no big deal unless they appear ready to brake and not brake! 2: Do you have the dreaded XJ ABS system? It requires a bit of extra work to bleed, which in my case results in the whole system being dumped in favor of a junkyard replacement (or my backyard, depending which has parts closer) 3: Washer? May have been in the kit by accident. 4: I add another main leaf with the eyes cut off (I suffer from RM aka Rambler Mentality) or buy add a leafs (which generally ride much rougher than stock) 5: If the noise matches vehicle speed and doesn't change with on/off gas pedal, then it's wheel bearing. If it changes, then something else. Jim Blair, Lynnwood, WA '87 Comanche, '83 Jeep J10, '84 Jeep J10 From: Marc Z Subject: xj: Rear brake question Hello Everyone, I have replaced both of the rear brake cylinders on my '89 Jeep Cherokee Laredo and I have a few questions: 1) the two chrome, or used to be chrome, pins which are in each end of the cylinders. Should they be replaced if they have rusted so that the chrome is gone? 2) when pumping the brakes to bleed the lines, is it normal for fluid to squirt up and out of the master cylinder reservoir? This seems odd to me and I'm wondering if I need to replace that master cylinder. It's actually not that old but it was bought from AutoZone. 3) I didn't need to replace the brake shoes but I did end up with an extra washer, a thin one. Any idea where that goes? 4) the rear of this Jeep is sagging compared to the front end. What is the typical fix for that? Maybe an extra leaf on the springs? I noticed that the rubber bumpers that sit over the axle are just about toast. 5) I do notice a roar from the rear of the vehicle, especially with the rear seat down, when moving. Is it worth it to replace the rear bearings or might that be the diff? It doesn't look too tough once you have the drums off and the braking equipment. This vehicle has almost 200,000 miles on it. Thanks in advance, Marc Z in NC (where it's now snowing). _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live^Y Hotmail.:^Emore than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_ 012009 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:34:19 -0800 (PST) From: john Subject: xj: RE: fsj: Re: [db] What to do with a beatup old benz A Cherokee (XJ) with tan leather interior and factory sunroof would be my first choice to put a Mercedes Turbo Diesel into... would prefer to use the AW4, they are the best automatic I've ever had. But if there is an adapter to mate a mercedes AT to the jeep xfr case that would work too. if you find the line for that adapter, please share. :) john ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Jim Blair wrote: # # A: At least you have a closed in carport. I'm lucky to have a roof over my head right now while working! There was another Mercedes oil pan cited for use that is rear sump. (Sorry. I don't know much about the MBZ chassis designators) # That would allow for an easy install in an XJ (or MJ) or other vehicle requiring a rear sump pan. There is a group that does MBZ diesel swaps into various rigs and they make an adapter bell to hook to GM pattern AFAIK so 700R4 was probably used. (I could rig up an adapter to Jeep bell if I knew how to do CAD) An AW4 would be an excellent auto for the diesel. (Toyota diesels use them) They are low stall and high efficiency (which is why '93 ZJs with 4.0L AW4 got -at- 5mpg more than later models with the 42RE) 42RE may be convertible to 42RH with an '88 to '93 Dodge valve body (haven't done it, but I was going to before discovering the 42RH wouldn't stand up to the stroker motor I'm building or even the stock 304 from my J4000) # An adapter to hook the MBZ trans to a NP/NV tcase may already be available. # # # # # # you've come to the right place... # step into the Snohomish Monster Carport for a few minutes... :) # # I was looking at doing this to a '99 WJ not long ago... I've considered # putting a Benz Diesel into an XJ or even my J10. # # The 300SD probably weighs in around 3,800lbs or so, right? The WJ # weighs around 3,950. My '83 J10 stepside is 4,100lbs and most # XJs are around 3,500-3,800lbs. Most Grand Wagoneers are in the 4,500 - 5,100 lb # range. # # So, power to weight for your setup is within reason... here are # the challenges that must be overcome: # # 1) the engine is a front sump, the axle and steering will get in the way... # - recommend getting a rear sump pan or massive amounts of lift. # # 2) you'll need to mate the Mercedes Diesel to the Jeep trans, need # an adapter... could be made... you'll need to adapt the flex plate # and possibly need a new torque converter... this is the direction # I'm considering first, however you face issues with the computer.(s). # remember the torque curve is different, you'll need to research and # work with a knowledgeable trans shop... computer issues may be resolved # with a manual override possible with the AW4... not sure about the # 42RE on the 4.0 or the 45RFE on the 4.7. # http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/WJ-transcode-0700/ # http://wjjeeps.com/speed_sensors.htm # # 3) if you use the benz engine and trans you'll either need a custom adapter # to mate the trans to the xfr case... or rig up a divorced case # setup of some kind... this could add length to the drivetrain... # this could have a ripple effect... you'll need driveshafts. # (my philosophy on doing these swaps it to try to use the stock # transfer case in place along with the stock driveshafts... and # move the engine forward... if you have the room.) # # 4) ok, so let's say you have the engine/trans/xfr case all in place... now # you'll need to deal with wiring... this will take the skill set of # both an electrical engineer and a computer engineer... there are # so many freakin' computers on a WJ that you'll be facing some # serious challenges to make it all work... I tried to set up the # heated seats on my WJ seats in my '91 Grand Wagoneer... I had # to buy TWO WJ computers and never did finish the project... started # it in the Blazer, never finished... # # 5) plumbing... coolant... you'll need to add an oil cooler... minor problems. # # 6) engine mounts... recommend using the benz mounts, have saddles made up to # use the stock WJ bases... you'll need to find the center line of # the engine and keep things lined up properly... depending on whether # you go with 2 or 3 you may need to move it forward or back. not a big # issue... any one with a welder and big hammer can make this part work. :) # # 7) firewall clearance... shouldn't be a problem # # 8) brake system - the benz uses a vacuum pump for the brake booster, shouldn't # be a problem. # # 9) exhaust system... if your WJ is a 4.0L the exhaust is on the driver's # side... on the benz it's on the passenger side... the 4.7L V8 comes out # passenger side: http://wagoneers.com/WJ/tech/under-wj-2.jpg # # # After having done about a half-dozen of these swaps with more planned, you really # need to 1) question your sanity 2) make sure you have lots of budget for odd ball # issues and parts 3) make sure you have lots of friends with lots of skills 4) # make sure you aren't planning on having this happen in weeks - figure 6 to 8 months # at a minimum, and that's just mechanical, you may need more for faking the comptuers # out... and you need those computers for just about everything on that body... # # I am giving thought to using either a 2.5 or 3.0 Mercedes Turbo Diesel in # my '83 J10 stepside, but will probably keep the T-5... which means I'll need # to find a flywheel and clutch setup for the benz... no, wait, just the flywheel # and hope they're the same size... # # Why do these ideas have to be so complicated? :) # # The 6.2L Diesel in my '91 Grand Wagoneer would have been better had I not # used the Novak Adapter mounts or xfr case setup... should have used stock # GM mounts, more soundproofing on the firewall when the engine was out and # the Advance Adapter setup on the trans instead of the xfr case... # http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/Omega/ # # hope this helps... # # if you decide to bail... how much for that engine? and where are you? :) # # john # # _________________________________________________________________ # Windows Live(TM): E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. # http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_012009 # ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:26:47 -0800 (PST) From: Ed Kummel Subject: Re: xj: just wrong... Yes...that is indeed wrong...but this is wronger because he did this to a classic... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250355043505&ss pagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem= http://tinyurl.com/dgamwr Be sure to scroll down and see all the "glorious" pictures of this eyesore! It's really sad...it's the same color (outside color) and convertible color as mine (kinda)...except my '72 is really green, not that weird morphing paint color that this one is! Ed web/gadget guru - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ By Richard Feynman, Physicist, Nobel winner (1918-1988) "There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." - --- On Thu, 1/22/09, john wrote: From: john Subject: xj: just wrong... To: Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 11:14 PM not sure how long this link will be around, but I think I saw this thing driving through everett last week... it's just wrong... http://images.craigslist.org/3n13m53p412314c1g991meb392ddd44901051.jpg 86 CAPRICE WITH A 91 EURO FRONT ITS SITTNG ON 26"S WITH A 4" LIFT. DUAL EXHAUST WITH 4" TIPS. it is amazingly weird looking... not sure how you can turn with it... almost want to go and find it to see how it works... :) ----- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 01:29:15 -0800 From: Subject: Re: xj: just wrong... Don't be a hater of the big wheel game that's how its done in Sugarland, Texas, player player. That's worst then having a lowered 4-wheel drive jeep. - -------------------------------------------------- From: "Ed Kummel" Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:26 PM To: Subject: Re: xj: just wrong... > Yes...that is indeed wrong...but this is wronger because he did this to a > classic... > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250355043505&ss > pagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&viewitem= > > http://tinyurl.com/dgamwr > > Be sure to scroll down and see all the "glorious" pictures of this > eyesore! > > It's really sad...it's the same color (outside color) and convertible > color as > mine (kinda)...except my '72 is really green, not that weird morphing > paint > color that this one is! > Ed > web/gadget guru > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > By Richard Feynman, Physicist, Nobel winner (1918-1988) > > "There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But > it's > only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to > call > them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." > > --- On Thu, 1/22/09, john wrote: > > > From: john > Subject: xj: just wrong... > To: > Date: Thursday, January 22, 2009, 11:14 PM > > > not sure how long this link will be around, but I think I saw > this thing driving through everett last week... it's just wrong... > > http://images.craigslist.org/3n13m53p412314c1g991meb392ddd44901051.jpg > > 86 CAPRICE WITH A 91 EURO FRONT > ITS SITTNG ON 26"S WITH A 4" LIFT. > DUAL EXHAUST WITH 4" TIPS. > > > it is amazingly weird looking... not sure how you can turn with it... > almost want to go and find it to see how it works... :) > > ----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Snohomish, Washington -o|||||o- where Jeeps don't rust, they mold > http://johnmeister.com/fotomeister - Trust Jesus: http://freegift.com > SAVE power, avoid viruses, use LINUX: http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf > SAVE fuel, use synthetics: http://AMSOIL.com/redirect.cgi?zo=283461 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of xj-digest V1 #2939 *************************