From john wagoneers.com Sat Apr 10 12:42:45 2004 Turbo research: monster garage(s) Western Washington style QUESTION 1: Will fitting a turbo from a later model Mercedes Diesel to an older Mercedes Diesel increase performance and power? e.g. - Garrett turbo from an '87 3.0L or a '91 2.5L into an '83 3.0L. QUESTION 2: Is there any other reason why the '83 3.0L Mercedes Turbo Diesel would not be an acceptable choice for my '83 J10. The J10 originally had a 4.2L I-6. It's the stepside model so it's lighter then a standard J10, weighing in around 4,100lbs. My goal is economy. I know with certainty that the '96 Jeep 4.0L will work quite nicely, offering more hp & torque and should provide much better economy. I have all the pieces to make it work. IF the troubles with the Mercedes 3.0L are too great then a speedy warning to me will keep me from diverting from the original plan. :) It'll also cause me to drag the '83 300D home instead of to Centralia... :) ------------------------- DETAILS: ----------------------- I've got a few minutes between classes and flights to lay out the next phase of the SuperDawg project. http://www.wagoneers.com/SuperDawg/ (BTW, I may be in NY or CO later this month or next teaching SUSE & RH Linux... just got back from AZ, CA, OR, TX & MO... tired... ;) BACKGROUND: a friend of mine and I are retrofitting my '83 J10 stepside with a "new" engine/trans/xfr case, extending the cab, upgrading seats/electronics, etc... the original plan was to replace the existing 4.2L (bad #2 cylinder)/T-5/NP208 with a '96 4.0L/AW4/NP219. Well, we've had a few delays... it was supposed to be done Labor Day 2001. Then before Ouray 2002. Hopefully it'll be done this year... Anyway, another possibility for driveline propulsion has crept into my head... and the reason for this email (someone on the Diesel Benz list please forward this message to the Stu-Ritter list as their subscription form is broken right now and I need input from that forum as well... thanx.) I'm acquiring an '83 300D with a bad turbo... (this is a good thing ;) and if I can replace the stock turbo with a newer version I MAY see the performance I'm enjoying in later Diesel Benz models... below are the details to show my point. Here's the basic HP/torque specs to show the original Jeep engine, the 4.0L Jeep planned engine, and the stock '83 300D /'87 300D for comparisons: ORIGINAL engine: 83-4.2L - 115 hp@3,200 -210 ftlb @1800 PLANNED 4.0L: 96-4.0L - 185 hp@4,600 -220 ftlb @2400 the latest idea: 83-3.0LTD- 125 hp@4,350 -170 ftlb @2400 (with the stock turbo) THE goal of this engine swap is NOT performance, but usability and economy. Y'all have seen the fuel prices. I love driving my J10 and enjoy the economy of Diesel... If I can blend a Mercedes Diesel with my Jeep J10 I'll be a happy camper... won't win any drag races, but with 40 gallons of fuel capacity the Jeep will go a LOT further then my bladder... ;) HERE's THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLDER TURBO DIESELS and the newer ones: year model cyl engine: bore/stroke hp torque '83 300D: 5 3.0L TD 3.58x3.64 in 120 hp@4,350 -170 ftlb @2400 '87 300D: 6 3.0L TD 3.43x3.31 in 143 hp@4,600 -195 ftlb @2400 '91 300D: 5 2.5L TD 3.43x3.31 in 121 hp@4,600 -165 ftlb @2400 (NOTE '91: fuel injection high pressure, mechanical Garrett T3 turbo) (note '87: the dealer noted the '87 also used the Garrett turbo, part numbers below) (note: used Robert Nitske's book for the specs) NOTE: 83 3.0L is an OM617A 87 3.0L is an OM603A 91 2.5L is an OM602 I have a hunch that the difference in performance and power for the '87 & '91 are based partially in the turbo setup. On the '83 3.0L Turbo Diesels they seem to kick in around 35mph by design... on the '87 3.0L and the '91 2.5L they seem to be there from the start. If the engines are basically the same otherwise then putting a later model turbo on the '83 3.0L should enhance it's ability to propel a Full Size Jeep using 4.10 gears and stock tires... There is a slight difference in B&S between the '83 and the '87, the '87 3.0L having smaller bore and stroke... probably lighter and faster spinning, but since the torque is developed at a lower rpm for the '83 it may work better for my project. FWIW, the approximate B&S on the 4.0L is 3.88x3.14 in Here's the bore & stroke in metric for the Diesels: '83 3.0L - 91x92.4 mm '87 3.0L & '91 2.5L - 87x84 mm Cubic Inch displacement for the metric impaired (that includes me. ;) '83 4.2L - 258 cu in '83 3.0L - 183 cu in '87 3.0L - 182.8 cu in '91 2.5L - 152.4 cu in '96 4.0L - 241.6 cu in Here's the Mercedes TURBO part numbers: '83 300D - 3.0L - 0010966499 / 0020961699 - est. remans $815 --> $1208 '87 300D - 3.0L - Garrett 0020969299 / 0020969296 '91 300D - 2.5L - 6060960099 - est. $1632 - remans $1048 The question is will I be able to bolt a newer turbo, say from the '87 300D onto the '83 3.0L without an adapater? Will I need to modify the fuel system? Does anyone have a turbo from a newer Diesel they can take pictures of? I'm not concerned about having to make an adapter to fit the newer turbo to the older motor. I'm also thinking that intercooling might help the overall performance as well. Remember, the design objective is to create an economical daily driver that has enough oomph to haul a small trailer, max weight close to 2 tons when full... weight of the J10 right now is around 4,100lbs. An '83 300SD weighed in around 3,800lbs so the base vehicle weights are not too far apart. I love Diesels... especially Mercedes Diesels. To be able to make one work in my FSJ would be great. But I'm asking for a REALITY CHECK. In a way I have a hunch that the 3.0L TD conversion may be more trouble then it's worth in the J10... but that's ok, because I have a decent '87 Cherokee with 249,600 miles on it that I can use that 3.0L in... :) Stop me before I do something I'll regret... :) (the 3.0L in the XJ might make more sense and be something I can do later... - need to hear from my friends... I respect what y'all have say! THANX!!!) You can take the Meister out of the garage, but you can't take the garage out of the Meister... ;) the gears they keep on turning... thanx all, hope you all have a great Easter - remember the reason for the season is Jesus! later, john meister from the Snohomish chapter of the Western Washington monster garage... ----------------------------------------------------------- john at http://wagoneers.com http://wagoneers.com/johns-vehicles.html Snohomish, WA, where Jeeps don't rust, they mold... -----------------------------------------------------------