some history on the 327 V-8 used in the J-series JEEPS below...
see also:
http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/327-V8/327-v8.html
note: currently I have a 1967 Jeep J3000 registered in my name, it's my
son's truck and it has the 327. My first FSJ was a 1967 with the 327 V8.
November 2000, john
>From: Mike Sealey
>Subject: fsj: 327 Kaiser? You sure about that?
>
>And no, I'm not claiming it's a Ch*vy engine...
>...they sure look to me like the old '57-'66
>AMC/Rambler 327 V8 (truly a great engine that hardly
>anyone knows about).
>
>In fact, I once bought exhaust manifold gaskets for my
>'65 Ambassador from a place that specialized in Jeep
>stuff when I couldn't find 'em anywhere else, on the
>belief that this was the same engine... ...they fit
>perfectly...
>
>Did K-J produce this engine under license? Seems to me
>it woulda just been less hassle to buy them from AMC.
>
>I realize Chilton's and a few other sources refer to
>this as a Kaiser engine, but I'm not so sure...
>=====
>Mike Sealey, San Francisco CA
>"The Ultimate Rambler -
>This Ain't No Yuppie Jeep"
>'77 Wagoneer 401
from page 217, standard catalog of American Motors 1902-1987,
isbn 0-87341-232-x :
"The Ambassador was AMC's full-sized car, continuing a model
begun in 1932 by Nash. The Ambassador used the 327 cid V-8 formerly
used in top of the line Nashes, not to be confused with the unrelated
Chevrolet 327 cid engine."
from page 191, JEEP the 50 year history, robert c. ackerson,
isbn 0-85429-533-x :
"In April, 1965 the Wagoneer became the first Jeep vehicle to be
offered with a V-8 engine when American Motors' 327 cubic inch
V-8 became available as an option. This move was announced by
James Beattie, Kaiser Jeep Corporation's vice-president-marketing
who explained that rather than wait for the new model year to begin,
Kaiser's policy was to announce product improvements as they became
available. The overhead cam six was still the standard engine,
but this "Vigilante" V-8 was, at $190.83, an attractive alternative.
With a 2-barrel carburetor the V-8 developed 250 horsepower at
4700 rpm and 340 lb.ft. of torque at 2600 rpm.
This engine was originally introduced in 1956 for the Nash Ambassador
Special line. At that time it displaced 250 cubic inches with a
bore and stroke of 3.50 x 3.25 inches. Peak horsepower was 190 at
4900 rpm with a 8.0:1 compression ratio and singel 2-barrel Carter
carburetor. Most engine analysts regarded it as a straightforward
design that, if lacking in exciting features, was reliable and
up-to-date. Four main bearings were used and with all accessories,
but minus its flywheel and clutch this V-8 weighted 601 pounds. Thinwall
construction was used for all iron castings and with good-sized
valves (1.79 inch intake and 1.41 inch exhaust) plus a 4.75 inch
bore center-to-bore center measurement it was easily expanded to
327 cubic inches with a 4 inch bore and 3.25 inch stroke in 1957.
At that point its maximum horsepower was 255 at 4700 rpm with a
4-barrel Carter carburetor and 9.0:1 compression ratio. In December,
1956 American Motors announced that this engine would power its entry
in the then popular limited production high-performance field, the
Rambler Rebel. The 255 horsepower version would be standard. The
V-8 was available with an optional Bendix electronic fuel injection
system. Due to production problems no Rebels were sold with fuel
injection but the next year a more powerful V-8 with 270 horsepower
at 4700 rpm and a higher 9.7:1 compression ratio was offered.
In conjunction with the use of the V-8 Kaiser Jeep also made available
General Motors' Turbo Hydra-Matic 3-speed torque converter automatic
transmission for both 2- and 4-wheel drive models.
This engine-transmission did not replace any of the J-series' existing standard
or optional engine-transmission choices."
more followed, excerpts:
... Motor Trend, September, 1965, tested a Wagoneer with a complement
of options... the Wagoneer... curb weight 4,200lbs, 3.31 axle,
accelerated from zero to 60 mph in 14.5 seconds. Popular Mechanics,
October, 1965, tested... 0 to 60mph in 13.1 seconds...
Motor Trend... standing start 1/4 mile in 19.6 seconds at 68mph, top
speed was 89mph... base price of $3633, tested price $5330.80...
a Chevy Impala wagon 9-passenger was $3181, Ford Country Squire $3283.
from pg 115, The story of Jeep, patrick R. foster, isbn 0-87341-564-7 :
"The Wagoneer and Gladiator lines were improved again, this time by
the mid-year addition of V-8 power to the option list. Jeep, not
wanting to spend the huge sum of money it would cost to develop its
own engine, chose to instead purchase from a dependable supplier,
the American Motors Corporation. The engine was AMC's largest,
a cast-iron 327-cid, 250-horsepower unit with 2 barrel carburetor, from
it's Rambler Ambassador. Jeep called its new engine offering the
"Vigilante," ..."
john meister
snohomish, washington
Mike then replied with:
Thanks, John. Since we've confirmed that we're talking
about the same engine, I thought you'd like some more
info...
The AMC 327 actually has Kaiser roots, being closely
related to a 288-ci V8 prototype that had been
contemplated for the Kaiser Manhattan. How similar
this engine is internally to Rambler's 287 is not
known. This engine was designed by Kaiser-Frazer
engineer David Potter, who later expanded on this
earlier work at AMC, culminating in the 250/287/327
engine family.
The early AMC V8 was the result of a crash program,
and if it borrowed heavily from Potter's earlier K-F
work it's understandable considering the time frame
they were working under. Nash-Kelvinator's George
Mason had merged with Hudson to form AMC, while at
Mason's urging Packard's James Nance had taken over
Studebaker. The master plan, which has been documented
by historians of makes on both sides, was to then
merge Studebaker-Packard into AMC; this plan came to a
standstill after Mason's untimely death in 1954.
As an early step toward the eventual merger, '55 and
early '56 Nash Ambassadors and Hudson Hornets used the
320 and 352 V8 and Twin Ultramatic Drive from the
Packard Clipper. This deal did not go well for a
number of reasons, among them being Packard's
insistence that engines going to AMC be fitted with
lower compression heads so as not to give a
performance edge over the Clipper, and Twin
Ultramatic's reliability problems. AMC president
George Romney felt there was no future in working with
Packard and ordered a home-grown AMC V8. The 250-ci
version appeared in the spring of 1956 in the Nash
Ambassador Special and Hudson Hornet Special (the
"Special" designation signifying the smaller, less
expensive V8 mounted in the shorter wheelbase Nash
Statesman/Hudson Wasp platform).
As you mentioned, the 327 appeared the following year
in Ambassadors, Hornets and Rambler Rebels. Somewhere
around '63, Rambler adopted what they called
"Tri-Poise Power" engine mounting; what that really
seems to mean is that a pre-'62 250/327 will not bolt
right into a '63 and newer 287/327 car because the
engine mounts are different. I assume because we're
talking post-'65 that the Wagoneer/Gladiator uses the
later style mounts, but I don't know that for sure.
In addition to Jeeps, the Rambler 250/287/327 found
its way into boats as well, AMC supplying these
engines to Gray Marine. I had a friend who had a Gray
Marine 327 in his boat, and felt it had to be a
converted passenger car engine, but didn't have the
faintest idea what it was, other than it sure didn't
look like a Chevy 327...
=====
Mike Sealey, San Francisco CA
"The Ultimate Rambler -
This Ain't No Yuppie Jeep"
'77 Wagoneer 401
More on the 327 engine
--- john wrote:
>
> I found this page.
> http://members.nbci.com/amcturbo/newv8.htm
note: permission was granted by Greg Taylor, see bottom of this
page, to use his following email, as well as make a copy of the page cited
above on wagoneers.com. That page is at:
http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/327-V8/327-v8.html
>
> It provides a lot of technical detail, but I'm still confused on which
> company of AMC (nash, rambler, etc.) actually developed it.
>
> The discussion has gone on for years on the FSJ list about this. Calling
> it an AMC motor is ok, but I'd like to be more specific. :)
>
> thanx,
> john meister
Hi John,
The above listed weblink for the "New American Motors V-8" is part of my
website detailing the Rambler V8.
There is alot of mystery (as you know) surrounding the "origin" of the Gen I
AMC V8, or more commonly known as the Rambler V8. To be totally honest, I have
yet to hear documented TRUTH as to the origin, but I may have found some old
Rambler guys that could shed some light on the REAL truth. For now, here is
one scenario....
SCENARIO #1:
In 1954 Nash and Hudson merged to form American Motors Corporation. Both Nash
and Hudson were retained as vehicle lines, much like Dodge, Chrysler and
Plymouth for Chrysler Corporation (now Daimler-Chrysler). At that time V8
engines were being sourced from Packard Car Co., using the 359-V8 (I think
that's the correct size). Packard (the President) found a loophole in the V8
supply agreement with AMC and "legally" backed out, leaving AMC "engineless."
AMC then began scrambling to get a replacement engine back into their V8 line
of cars (Ambassador Special and Hornet Special). Now for the myth part of this
story .... Aparently, Kaiser Industries Corp. had been developing a V8 engine
for their cars, but it was scrapped after the car division was shipped to
Argentina (don't know truth on this). Supposedly, many Kaiser engineers went
to wrk for AMC, taking their blue prints with them. When the engine problem
arose, these engineers offered their blueprints to AMC and the Rambler V8 was
born. Another part of the myth is that the engine was originally designed to
be cast in aluminum (Kaiser was a pioneer in engineering) but AMC decided to
produce it in cast iron. This New V8 went from blueprint to production in
18-months, which was unheard of then and nearly impossible even today. Much of
this is accredited to the engine having been prototype-tested at Kaiser.
While all the above is "myth", I have heard it from a couple of sources and
haven't been able to verify the TRUTH yet. Also, more myth/speculation around
both the Rambler V8 and Stude V8, is that they were designed after the 1949
Cadillac V8. All these engines are extremely similar in size, engineering
principles/design, etc.
I am going to borrow some dust shield/block plates for the Rambler 196 and
Early 199/232 AMC inline-6 engines. I will compare these to the Rambler V8
s bell housing bolt pattern. This will help confirm if they have the same
pattern. If they do, then, there is a good possibility that the V8 was a NASH
design. I'll also see about borrowing a Hudson 308-I6 and a Kaiser 230-OHC
dust shield and compare them as well. If the Rambler V8 matches either of
these patterns, then it's a good possibility that the motor was either of
Hudson or Kaiser origin.
The big problem in researching the origin of this engine, is that many of the
engineers that designed it (four listed on my website) are retired, deceased,
or unlocatable. Also, since old Nash, Hudson, Kaiser, Jeep and AMC records
were either destroyed or "untouchable" at Daimler-Chrysler, it may never be
truly ironed out.
Tell me what you know regarding the engine? I am curious what you have heard.
=====
Sincerely,
GregTaylor :)
Editor Guy/Web Master - Great Lakes Classic AMC Club
http://www.turboforce.com "AMC & Stude Turbo Racing"
http://www.turboboost.com "AMC Turbocharging & No. 67 Racer"
http://members.xoom.com/glcac "Eastern-MI AMC Club"
Rochester Hills, MI (Where we live)
Welcome to the Technical section for FULL SIZE JEEPs on wagoneers.com
FSJ's are Jeep Cherokees and Jeep Wagoneers made from 1962 to 1992.
They include Grand Wagoneers, Gladiators, J10's through J4000's and any other J-series trucks.
Sign up for PayPal here
and use it to buy the FSJ decal.
You may use this image on your site if you provide a link to wagoneers.com.
To use it, please link to http://www.wagoneers.com
Greetings from
Snohomish, Washington - USA, where Jeeps don't
rust , they mold...
These pages are the first and the longest running Full Size Jeep pages on the
internet. The FSJ pages were started on John's homepage on Compuserve,
moved to the wagoneers.com and then a larger version appeared for about
11 months on a commercial site until returning to the wagoneers.com. Now
they will appear here. There have been parallel FSJ pages, but these
are the original.
There is one slight exception concerning the "first": the zynet.com pages. Those
pages were created about the same time but disappeared off the internet. John's
pages were placed on compuserve about the same time, and were in fact a copy
of some of the pages created there by Kevin Highsmith.
The FSJ-list got it's start in 1995 when John Meister and Mike Lacher met on
rec.autos.4x4 and started talking about Wagoneers. Within a few months there
were a dozen other folks involved and we kicked off the first list. The
list moved from server to server and in 1997 split into two lists. The list
that John is currently active on is the one on digest.net.
permission to use Greg's info
--- john wrote:
> Greg,
>
> Thanx for your reply and info on the 327. I've read similiar accounts,
> although you've added more info than I've heard/read before.
>
> Looking through my web server I found this page I'd put together:
> http://www.wagoneers.com/FSJ/tech/Engines/327-history.html
>
> (too much detail to list in this email.)
>
> With your permission I'd like to add this email and, if at all possible,
> a cleaned up copy of the page on your site into the page cited above.
Hi John,
Permission Granted ... for both the email and my webpage! BTW, I am working on
PERFORMANCE PARTS for the Rambler V8 ... see
http://www.ep.com/js/mi/c0/b0/v0/769261.html for details.
=====
Sincerely,
GregTaylor :)
Editor Guy/Web Master - Great Lakes Classic AMC Club
http://www.turboforce.com "AMC & Stude Turbo Racing"
http://www.turboboost.com "AMC Turbocharging & No. 67 Racer"
http://members.xoom.com/glcac "Eastern-MI AMC Club"
Rochester Hills, MI (Where we live)
__________________________________________________
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